Hi Mandy
Sounds like you need a very long course of very good probiotics..I would guess if we all had this test done many of us would have similar results..
Where did you have it done and what did you have to do? Was it actually the bacteria in the stomach or in the bowels ?
Lindy xx

I too had bacteria overgrowth in my intestine.

This was caused by gluten who 'destroy' my intestine because I have Celiac.

I stopped eating gluten, took some anti-fungal medicin, took probiotics and right now Im taking Colostrum and n-acetyl-glucosamine to repair the damage done.

Hi sylviaann, I would be interested to know if the tap water where you live is fluoridated. Most water filters are just carbon filters, which don't filter out fluoride, but reverse osmosis filters do remove fluoride. There is also a large overlap in the symptoms of fluoride intolerance and salicylate intolerance, including GI symptoms.

Hi Mandy, I would also be interested to know if the tap water which affects your sister's baby is fluoridated.

btw, I have a problem with gluten but have tested negative for coeliac disease. I mentioned on another thread that apparently the majority of people who are gluten sensitive do not have coeliac disease. My understanding is that the defining characteristic of coeliac disease is damage to the microvilli in the intestines, whereas non-coeliac gluten intolerance is a "run-of-the-mill" food intolerance like any other.

Yes the water that both I and my little nephew drink does have flouride in it. I also believe that the water in my area is slightly high in mercury. Any thoughts on how heavy metals could be affecting us? I only gt sick after moving to this area. I was fine before that.

Mandy

sylviaann, if you live in America you should be able to find out whether or not your water supply is fluoridated here:

http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/MWF/Index.asp

You probably realise already that distilled water should be low in fluoride.

Mandy, I have read that babies are particularly vulnerable to fluoride. I don't know a whole lot about heavy metals, but I do know that mercury can cause joint problems, which I suffer from. I had a 24-hour urine test for mercury a few years ago, as recommended by a website I found, but it came back normal, despite the fact that I have 10 mercury amalgam fillings. Two members of my family have had their fillings replaced, and have said they felt better afterwards, but I don't think they had any dramatic health improvement. Reverse osmosis filtered water, rainwater, distilled water, and most spring water should be low in fluoride and heavy metals. Apparently there is a lot of variation in the quality of reverse osmosis filters. As far as I can tell the quality of the reverse osmosis filter I have is good, and I've had a lot of health benefits with it, but for some reason it doesn't seem to allow me to reach a healthy weight. I have only ever been a healthy weight while using unfluoridated tapwater, spring water, or rainwater. I'm back on the rainwater now, so hopefully I'll gain weight again.

Like you, I've had much better health in some locations than others, and it was only in hindsight that I realised my health was much improved in all the places without fluoridated water supplies. This seems to be a quite common experience. Unfortunately some of the adverse health effects of fluoride can be irreversible. It took me a long time to realise I had a problem with fluoride because I thought it couldn't accumulate in the body like heavy metals. It turns out I was dead wrong.

Rita, is this the article you are referring to?

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/32731

It was mentioned on this forum a while ago. It says "Fluoride toxicity (yes the stuff in toothpaste and water which is also sold commercially as rat poison) is known to be corrosive to the mucous membranes lining the cut, cause gastro-intestinal inflammation and INCREASE THE EFFECT OF SALICYLATES. Each year children are admitted to hospital emergency departments from fluoride toxicity from eating toothpaste and it is not recommended for infants under 2." Unfortunately the article is not referenced.

Strictly speaking, chlorine cannot chemically break down to anything because it is an element. I'm sure there's something to what you're saying, though.

Black Wizard. It's been so long, I can't remember if that was the article that I read. I've read it in more than one place, though. Thank you for the correction on chlorine. I actually got that information second hand. I should have said,

"Some organochlorines are known to be “hormonally active”: they mimic or otherwise disrupt the natural action of the body’s natural sex hormones, including estrogen. Since estrogen is a known risk factor for breast cancer, chemicals that act like estrogen are also likely to increase risk of the disease. Exposures to these chemicals during adulthood may cause estrogen-like effects and promote breast cancer."

Black Wizard,
Do you know of any medical research articles referencing the absorption of flouride ions by the skin and lungs? The reason I ask is that for the past few nights, I have been taking an Epsom salts bath at full strenght (2 cups-late evening) as my doctor instructed. The next morning, I have experienced "D". When I was visiting my sister in Virginia last week, I tool the baths every night for five nights with no GI problems.
I have narrowed my problem to either my bath water or processed sugar. I reintroduced processed sugar (Domino's claims there are no sulfites) a few days ago (added to pancakes) so I am going to stop the sugar for the next several days and see how I respond.

Anyway, if you know of a medical reference article, I would greatly appreciate it. :)

Thank you for the reference articles Black Wizard. My doctor( a peds holistic physician) instructed me to use 2 cups of epsom salts (he considers this to be full strength) every night. He uses this protocol frequently with his autistic patients (the majority of his peds patients are autistic) ad it usually helps with sleeping and the PST issues. I take a fifteen minute bath up the neck in water as warm as I can tolerate. When I started using the salts three weeks ago, I gradually introduced them and slowly increased my dose until I reached the 2 cup strength approx ten days ago. Since I noticed GI symptoms two days ago, I stopped processed sugar again (this morning) and have not experienced any GI symptoms. I also reduced my epsom salts to 1.5 cups last night, just in case .

I have a feeling the problem is the processed sugar since I had no problems with the epsom salts last week....unless it is my bath water.

I have not been able to find animal based glycerin. If you know where I can find it in the US, please let me know. I reacted severely to vegetble glycerin a few months ago (severe myoclonus). Is there a specific cream you have used with the epsom salts mixed in or did you make your own with the animal based glycerin?
I know that I read an article on my physician's website that outlines the procedure for using/applying an epsom salt Rub using the salts and water.

Many thanks again for your ideas,
Sylvia :)

Hi Black Wizards,

My myoclonus symptoms started almost four years ago and also occurs at sleep onset (day or night). It was so severe (prior to diagnosis) that I would be up all night. Thankfully, it has improved during the past year but I still take a small dose of clonazapam at bedtime to help me get past the twitches and jerks. However, whenever I ingest food, inhale an offending chemical or spice, or apply a lotion or cosmetic item containing benzoates, sulfites or preservatives, my symptoms are severe.

Do you have trouble with sulfites and preservatives?
How long have you suffered with sals intolerance?
Do you have to adhere to the neglible-low sals category or are tyou able to eat foods in the moderate category?
Interesting that your grandmother had the same symptoms! Does she have trouble sleeping too?

mandy I had the same test, and i have a problem with gluten/wheat/gluten free oats.... very interesting! my dietician ordered the test but my doctor didnt want anything to do with the results. My dietician referred me to my doc haha so i didnt get anywhere with it

E-coli count 33.3%
Total Strep count 66.7% should be <3%
Total Bacteroides 64% should be 90-95%
Prevotella spp 36% should be <10%
Bifidobacterium 0% should be 5-11%
Lactobaccillus 0% should be 0.5-1.5%

There are a heap of other things that should have a reading that were 0% but the above are the ones the dietician was paying attention to.

If anyone knows what it means etc I would really appreciate your comments, in as layman terms as possible :)

Vitamin D is a fat soluable vitamin, and don't we need the omega 3 to absorb them? That would all fit in with the fish oil theory.

Hi Mandy
I don't think anyone has tested fish oil for amines, but a common finding from people intolerant to amines is that fish oil is not able to be taken - I am one of them, and I've tried 3 times with 3 different brands.
Kind Regards
Marie

Greetings Black Wizards,

Well..I am starting to become highly suspicious that flouride might be part of my problem. I found it interesting that fluoride found in our water can cause GI problems, seizures, weight loss, blurry vision. The symptoms are similar to my salicylate intolerant symptoms. I also found it ironic that when I returned from my eleven day trip, I noticed that some of my chemical sensitivities had dimished (not sure if the epsom salt baths or the reverse osmosis water were contributing factors in this improvement). I stopped processed sugar a few days ago and took another epsom salt bath (1.5 cups of salts). I seemed to be fine the next morning. Two nights ago, I repeated the epsom salts bath (late evening) and the next morning, I seemed to have a laxative affect from something (possibly the magnesium in the salts??). My doctor had avised me that epsom salts should not cause a laxative affect when using them as a soaking agent so I am perplexed. I used 2 cups of salts nightly for 5-6 nights when I was in Virginia and had no problems. My sister has a soft water system for bathing and the reverse osmosis system for drinking water. This is why I wonder if I am reacting to our bath water and not the salts??
I read several articles about flouride sensitivity and allergy symptoms so it makes sense to me. I am so anxious to meet with my holistic peds physician because he believes in water systems for patients with compromised immune systems.

I did not take a bath last night and was unable to sleep for most of the night. I am so frustrated but ready for some answers.
How long did it take you to assemble your puzzle?

Hi Sylvia,
It sounds like you have a real dilemma. There is some information on Epsom salt baths here:

http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/articles/Report_on_Absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf

Epsom salts and other magnesium compounds are used as laxatives. When your doctor says that Epsom salts should not cause a laxative effect when using them as a soaking agent, it is not quite the same thing as saying that this cannot happen. The report above concludes that Epsom salt baths are safe, but also notes large variation in the effect on different people, and suggests taking them 2 or 3 times a week. I had a laxative effect just from soaking my hands for about 20 minutes, using 3 slightly heaped teaspoons (maybe 6 teaspoons worth) of Epsom salts and a bowl just big enough to fit my hands into, but it only happened after about 4 days of doing this. lindyd has reported a similar experience.
I'm not sure what "MCL" stands for, but the fluoride levels of 0.608 and 4 which you quote are almost certainly in parts per million, or equivalently milligrams per litre or milligrams per kilogram. A level of 0.608 ppm is not incredibly high, but high enough to potentially cause problems. Although fluoride is toxic for everyone, the phenomenon of fluoride sensitivity has been identified (as you have discovered), and it seems likely that those who are salicylate sensitive are more likely to be fluoride sensitive than others. Exactly what do you mean when you say that your sister has a "soft water system"?
I can think of 3 possible solutions: either you get your Epsom salts by other means, you get sulfate by other means, or you get the enzymes you need to break down Phenols by other means. If there is no animal derived glycerin in the US, you could soak a smaller portion of your body, such as your hands, in an amount of water small enough to use distilled water or some other water which is low in fluoride. The smaller surface area of skin under the water can be counteracted by a higher concentration of Epsom salts, which just means more Epsom salts per unit of water, and may actually require less than the 1.5 cups you have been using. Another option is to dissolve the Epsom salts in low fluoride water and drink it. I have been using one 8th of a teaspoon of Epsom salt crystals in 1 cup of water, but maybe you would need more than that. I have read that sulphate is not absorbed as well when ingested, but it might be worth a try anyway. My RPAH Handbook says that ointments do not contain preservatives, so possibly that is an alternative to glycerin.
As for getting sulphate by other means, I think that Kirkman labs' Phenol Assist Companion is designed for that purpose. Have you tried it? Maybe another supplement discussed by Pierre and others would also help in this regard.
Phenol Assist and No Fenol are used to break down Phenols, and I think there are a few other products you can use for this. I'm sure there are others on the forum who know more about it than I do, but I do know that Kirkman labs is based in Portland, Oregon, which has an unfluoridated water supply, and as far as I know they manufacture supplements there.
I can hardly bear to think about how long it has taken me to work out what I know now, and I've still got a fair way to go. Let's just say I kept a food diary in 2002. I've seen many doctors, including specialists who should have been able to work out I had salicylate intolerance, but no such luck. Having serious joint problems doesn't help when it comes to research, either. I hope you will be luckier than I have been so far.

I think my vitamin D deficiency is caused by being ill and spending all my time indoors..also my mom had skin cancer so made me afraid to be in the sun..I cannot tolerate the heat...it is much more humid and hotter for longer here than what I am used to. I also was avoiding milk. My one sister who lives in Alberta also reported that she had a vitamin D deficiency.
Where we both grew up has hard water and natural molybdenum and copper as there is a moly/copper mine that closed a few years ago. The city sits in the cascade mountains at a higher elevation and might possibly have higher levels of other minerals as well, I haven't researched it.

The vitamin D suppliment I am taking I noticed is also used for hypoparathyroidism as well...i am noticing some marked improvement in my overall energy levels.

I do think that the worsening of my condition was quite noticeably timed with the fact that I got fluoride varnish put on my teeth...I got really tired of getting cavity after cavity but thinking back I think it was actually celiac and malabsorption of calcium weakening my teeth and causing cracks because I haven't had any new cavities since discovering that I am celiac. Well...also vit D is important for absorption of calcium, magnesium, potassium and so on...

My other sister lived in New Zealand for 8 years and also developed multiple problems related to food/absorption and though I'm not sure I think she had some bacterial overgrowth..I don't talk to her much.

Facinating!

Well I was reading a website the other day another one on leaky gut and I think I do know how this has happened to me, I saw "contaminated drinks" and rememberd an incident a couple of years ago...I went to a restaurant/bar and had a couple of drinks as did my husband..we both had to stop on the way home and vomit which was really strange because I only had 2 drinks and his were non-alcoholic..I looked this restaurant up and saw they were written up by the county health dept for "unsanitary conditions" and am convinced it was something in the ice..the time period fits with my major health decline and malayse and my food sensitivies and since at that time I had no idea I was celiac I was still eating gluten. I was sick with some sort of "flu" for about a month afterwards...have not confirmed bacterial overgrowth but am pretty sure this is the likely cause. About all of the symptoms of "leaky gut" or "increased intestinal permability" are the same...including food intolerance and bacterial overgrowth caused by NSAID's, hormonal birth control, antibiotic use etc..
This happened in Oct '08 and I lost 70lbs from Feb '09 to Sept 09' and started having really bad "hot flashes" that winter so it really fits..

http://www.crohns.net/Miva/education/leakygut.shtml
What is Leaky Gut Syndrome?
Leaky Gut Syndrome (intestinal permeability) is not a disease but rather an intestinal dysfunction that underlies many different illnesses and symptoms. However, Leaky gut syndrome is actually poorly recognized but yet an extremely common problem.

What causes Leaky Gut Syndrome?
Leaky gut syndrome results in an increase in the so-called permeability of the mucosal intestinal lining to luminal macro molecules. In other words, large spaces develop between the cells of the gut wall and this allows bacteria, toxins and food to leak in.


What happens next with Leaky Gut Syndrome?
Once the lining of the digestive tract becomes inflamed or damaged it disrupts the way the digestive system functions. The spaces that open up allow large food antigens to be absorbed into the body, which are regarded as 'foreign' to the body's defense system. This results in the production of antibodies against what was once harmless and innocuous foods. This is how food allergies are created as well as new symptoms with target organs. e.g. arthritis and fibromyalgia.

Avoid Unhealthy Food if you have Leaky Gut Syndrome
Poor food choices not only cause Leaky Gut Syndrome but may lead to food sensitivities as well. Processed foods are low in nutrients and fiber and often contain lots of food additives, unhealthy fats and sugar. This creates an alkaline intestinal pH and a slow waste transit time.

Symptoms of the Inflamed Gut associated with Leaky Gut Syndrome
It does not absorb nutrients and foods properly so it may result in fatigue and bloating.
When the detoxification pathways that line the gut are compromised, chemical sensitivity may also occur.
The leaking of toxins also burdens the liver so that the body is less able to handle everyday chemicals.
Carrier proteins are also damaged so nutrient deficiencies occur which cause a variety of symptoms:
Magnesium deficiency causes muscle spasms and fibromyalgia
Copper deficiency leads to high cholesterol and Osteoarthritis
Zinc deficiency leads to malabsorption which causes hair loss and some eye disorders (macular degeneration)
Inflamed Gut Lining because of Leaky Gut Syndrome
When the gut lining is inflamed the protective coating of lgA (immunoglobulin A) is negatively affected. The body is unable to ward off bacteria, viruses and parasites as well as fungus and yeasts like Candida. These pathogenic bad organisms then pass from the gut cavity into the bloodstream and set up infection anywhere else in the body.

Formation of Antibodies with Leaky Gut Syndrome
Formation of antibodies may occur. They leak across and look similar to antigens on our own tissues. So when an antibody is made to attack it, it also attacks the tissue. This is possibly how auto-immune and chronic disease like Crohns Disease, Rheumatoid arthritis, Lupus, Multiple Sclerosis, and Thyroiditis start.

Formation of Toxins with Leaky Gut Syndrome
Together these conditions encourage the formation of toxins. These toxins can also cause leaks. When food particles escape through the leaks into the blood stream, the immune system senses them as a threat (an antigen), and results in food sensitivities.

Leaky Gut Syndrome may cause confusion, memory loss, and 'brain fog'
In addition to the creation of food allergies, the bloodstream is flooded by bacteria, fungi and parasites that, in the healthy state, would not be able to penetrate the protective barrier of the gut. These microbes and their toxins, if present in large enough amounts, can overwhelm the liver's ability to detoxify. This results in symptoms such as confusion, memory loss, and 'brain fog'.

The following may lead to Leaky Gut Syndrome (Intestinal Permeability):
Antibiotics - because they lead to the overgrowth of abnoraml flora in the gastrointestinal tract (bacteria, parasites, candida, fungi)

Alcohol and caffeine (strong gut irritants)
Foods and beverages contaminated by parasites like Giardia lamblia, cryptosporidium, blastocystis hominis and others
Foods and beverages contaminated by bacteria like helicobacter pylori, klebsiella, citrobacter, pseudomonas and others
Chemicals in fermented and processed food (dyes, preservatives, peroxidized fats)
Enzyme deficiencies (e.g. celiac disease, lactase deficiency causing lactose intolerance)
NSAIDS (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) like ASA, ibuprofen, indomethacin, etc.
Prescription corticosteroids (e.g. prednisone, hydrocortisone, DepoMedrol, etc.)
High refined carbohydrate diet (e.g. candy bars, cookies, cake, soft drinks, white bread)
Prescription hormones like the birth control pill
Mold and fungal mycotoxins in stored grains, fruit and refined carbohydrates
Dysbiosis and Gastrointestinal Disease
Chemo-therapy and radiation therapy causing immune overload

Reposting this from another thread.. .. I

I may well have found why I am now sensitive to epsom salts.

Epsom salts are high in oxalates.. Well I have been drinking a fair amount of celery and parsley juice from my garden.. figuring I would get more nourishment , BUT parsley and celery are high in oxalates..

SO I figure I have reached my limit of oxalates now.. and will surely not be drinking much juice from now on.

IT is said that to decrease the amount of oxalate buildup to take magnesium.. Fortunately I so far tolerate magnesium oil made from sea salt..

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1190515

Curious as to Kelza and Mandy's bacteria treatment....anything new?

THanks Black.
I wondered about the oxalates in epsom salts.. I ate some celery , apparently high in oxalates and phew I did not react.. Celery is now my only vegi as parsley is apparently high in sals.. I will try parsley tomorrow..

And now I wonder what it is I am reacting to with the epsom salts.???

I went searching for an alternative source of sulfate as that helps with my severe pain.. Has anyone ever tried glauber salts.. another natural salt called sodium sulfate.. I am wondering if I put this on my skin would that replace the sulfate in the epsom??

nanci

Hi Nanci
Have you tried glucosamine sulphate? I didn't realise how much better I was feeling until I ran out and didn't take any for a few days and started to feel the way I used to feel..
I now take 2000mg a day (equivalent to 1500mg absorption).
Lindy xx

Hi Mandy,

I am curious to know what type of bacteria your doctor found? My peds specialist found Citrobacter Freundii cpmplex through my microbiology test.
What type of antibiotic did you take?
Based on my situation/bacteria, my doctor has instructed me to take mega doses of a Kirkman Lab Lactobacillius for six weeks and he will re-test me at that point. There is also an all natural herb he had advised me to take called Uva Ursi (supposed to be extremely effective to eradicate Citrobacter Freundii). However, it is derived from berries so we decided to wait on that. If my bacteria does not clear up in six weeks, I will probably have to take an antibiotic. We are trying to avoid inflicting anymore GI/Flora damage with an antibiotic, unless absolutely necessary.
I am also still taking Carbgest digestive enzymes.
Please let me know what happens when you re-introduce foods as I am in a similar situation. My doctor is hopeful that I have a severe case of Leaky Gut and that my food and chemical intolerances are most likely due to the bacteria and leaky gut.
I would love to know how long I have been walking around with the gut bacteria.....my guess is years.

Sylvia :)

Thanks Mandy..Dr I went to says I am probably dealing with same issue as Sylvia..leaky gut..probably have been walking around with it for years myself, just haven't figured out what bacteria I have % of good/bad...
Interesting about oxalobacter black wizards...I will have to look into that has well since I seem to have issues with oxalates...looks like it is not something normally tested for..

Hi Sylvia
Did your reports suggest that there were "overgrowths" of certain bacteria? It is "normal" for healthy individuals to have a certain amount of "bad" bacteria in their gut, just as it is "normal" to have a certain level of candida and other yeasts.
In a healthy person colonies of these "bad" organisms are kept under control by the immune system and the "good" organisms we also have in our bodies.
However when the immune system is low, during illness, stress, after antibiotics etc, the "bad" organisms may have a chance to multiply. It is an overgrowth that is an issue not the presence of the bacteria.
It's good that you are being advised to take high levels of probiotics..although I would have suggested a wide spectrum one..
If you do take the anitbiotics then a long dose of wide spectrum probiotics is essential as the antibiotic will kill off all of your good bacteria as well as the bad.. you need to replenish all of the different kinds... not just one..
Lindy xx

It says here

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/444683-treatment

that "Fluoroquinolones, cephalosporins, tetracyclines, and macrolide preparations are particularly toxic to Oxalobacter bacteria, while penicillin and sulfa drugs have relatively little effect."
Maybe the effect of antibiotics on other bacteria also varies.

Hi Nanci
Glad to hear you are feeling better again.
The RPAH book is available from the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital Allergy Unit www.sswahs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/allergy This book is co-authored by Anne Swain and includes recent research that has seen some changes to how some foods are classified (i.e some foods that were thought to be low in sals have been moved to the moderate or high lists and others have moved down a list). Unless someone knows of some overseas research that has been done in the last few years it is the most up to date research available on Australian foods. This book also contains information on shopping, meal planning, supplements, environmental factors and balancing your diet. There are recipes and heaps of tips - it is basically worth every cent you pay for it, even if you find that some of the foods don't quite match up to what you can eat/buy overseas

The book also lists amines, glutamates and has sections for food additives, gluten, soy and dairy. I would highly recommend people who don't get to a point of being basically symptom free on a low sals diet to use this guide and do the proper elimination diet with challenges on the above. This is because it is common for people to be intolerant to more than just sals - especially if you have multiple or debilitating symptoms. And as Blackwizards has stated many foods have more than just sals in them, many foods also contain sals and amines or sals, amines and glutamates.

You can purchase the book by going to the RPAH website (as above) and go to "Publications/Resources" and download the international order form if you live overseas.

Kind Regards
Marie