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  1.  
    please help me out
    • CommentAuthorKing
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2010
     
    Unfortunately not.
    • CommentAuthorPossum
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2010
     
    I thought I read on this site, that in some instances, cooking does lessen salicylates i.e. apples, tomatoes...?!
    • CommentAuthornanciswell
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2010
     
    I have also read it on this site ..Is it dependent on the actual food.?

    I have been boiling my pears as I am super sensitive and even pears without skins, bartlett and all I still react..But would not if it made no difference as boiling would afffect some of the food value..
  2.  
    I have also read somewhere in this forum that cooking destroy salicylate. If anyone knows it then please inform me. I am little bit confuse.
    • CommentAuthormarieling
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2010
     
    Cooking does not destroy salicylates. However salicylates are concentrated under the skin of most vegetables and fruits - thus for people who are not very sensitive, thickly peeling vegetables and fruits such as potatoes, carrots, pears and apples can decrease the salicylate content enough to be tolerated.

    The only things that are known to decrease the salicylate content of some foods (according to the RPAH book) are letting fruit and vegetable ripen (when fruit ripens the salicylate content decreases but the amine and glutamate content increases). Certain heavy duty processing such as turning sugar cane into white sugar (note raw sugar is higher in sals than white), corn into the highly refined cornflour, chemically refining oils and coffee, can also lower the sals content of certain foods enough to be tolerated by most food intolerant people, but it doesn't work for every food.

    Kind Regards
    Marie
    • CommentAuthorHolly B
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2010
     
    I can eat kale, and broccoli cooked, but not raw or dried.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2010
     
    According to my research and personal experience, cooking and freezing can lower the amount of salicylates in food enough for some of them to be tolerated. For instance, fresh apples causes an immediate reaction for me, but if baked, as in apple pie, I can enjoy a slice. Also, orange juice is a killer, but after freezing it, I can eat a cupful. So, you have to experience all foods for yourself cooked. Don't just write them off because they are high. You never know if your body will allow them. For a double whamey, try cooking frozen fruit or veggies, that way, you'll be lowering the sals from both directions.
  3.  
    Rita, a link to a web page which mentions the effect of cooking would be handy, if you can manage it.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2010 edited
     
    Black wizard, I can't remember where I read that information originally, maybe Swain's thesis? I know I've read it in more that one place. I'll see what I can dig up when I have the time.
    http://www.urticaria.thunderworksinc.com/pages/lowsalicylatediet.htm
    http://www.urticare.com/About+Us.html
    • CommentAuthorpippa
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2010
     
    One thing to consider is just what is your reaction to cooked versus raw foods. If it is just gas etc then perhaps the problem is just the enzymes in the food which are destroyed when cooked.
    Raw golded delicious apples give me gas but cooked does not .

    I have read a few times that fresh tomatoes have less sals than cooked because the cooked is more concentrated.

    Also , something to think about.... If cooked or frozen foods had their sals destroyed none of us would have any problem eating most foods and would not have such a limited diet. Just a thought.
  4.  
    Thanks Rita. The first link backs up what you're saying, but I couldn't find anything relating to cooking through the second link.

    Pippa, I think the idea is that freezing and cooking may reduce salicylate content, but not destroy all of the salicylates in a food.
    • CommentAuthorpippa
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2010
     
    That makes sense Black Wizard, but wouldn't it be great if cooking or freezing did destroy all the sals, I get so tired of eating rice , bananas and yogurt sigh
  5.  
    Yes, it would make life a lot easier pippa. I'm thinking I should find out which foods are suitable for freezing, and it would be nice to know how much difference freezing makes.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2010 edited
     
    Black Wizard, it's under the "Treatment" heading:
    Generally vegetables are low in salicylates except for the skins of root vegetables which can be peeled before cooking - which also helps remove the salicylates.

    As far as orange juice goes, it makes the difference between eating none and eating a cupful for me and my kids!
  6.  
    Thanks Rita. I think both webpages refer to food which has been "peeled and cooked", which makes me wonder if they are drawing on research which didn't distinguish between the effects of peeling and cooking. It's hard to tell.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2010
     
    Forget about the research. I can tell you from personal experience that cooking and freezing can make the difference between tolerating it and not tolerating it! :)
  7.  
    I would like some advice..

    I do not have any red things to eat.. What food would people suggst I give a try. I am intolerant of sulfur so swedes i react to..

    I was thinking of butternut squash.... I could bake it for half an hour ,, then freeze it ,, then thaw?? //
    And then pray...

    nanci
  8.  
    .... perhaps red onions. or red rice? red pears, red potatoes, red cabbage, lentils, red meat, or rhubarb? (i'm sorry, I don't know what is high/low sulfur)


    I was actually just thinking about squash this morning. I can't find anywhere whether or not squashes are safe. I used to make an awesome squash soup in the crock pot.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2010
     
    Hi Nanci, do you mean red and orange for the caroteen? I have always been able to eat a little bit of carrot. Or how bout a little bit of carrot juice, diluted with water? I recently tried some baked butternut squash, and I couldn't tolerate the one bite. And my tolerance is way up now. How about some pumpkin?
  9.  
    Rita, the RPAH handbook has butternut squash listed as moderate in salicylates, so your lack of tolerance to it seems to suggest a problem with some other chemical. I've been eating some butternut squash lately without much reaction, but had 15 g of walnuts two days ago and had the worst heart pain yesterday that I've had since going on the diet months ago. Which foods can you tolerate cooked, but not raw, and are you confident that it's reduced salicylate content which has made the difference and not some other effect of cooking? (I hope you realise I'm not trying to give you a hard time here - I'm just trying to get as much benefit from your experience as I can.)

    Nanci, I think the reason it is sometimes recommended that people eat red plant foods is that the red colour comes from a particular chemical which is a strong antioxidant. I can't remember the name of the chemical, but it is not the same as beta-carotene, which is what gives some orange foods their colour. I wouldn't worry too much about eating foods of a particular colour - what is important is getting the essential nutrients you need.
  10.  
    I have tried a lot of foods.. and seem to be completely intolerant of sals.. ie only a pinch and I am in bed..

    I am intolerant of all the food groups.. I am eating celery, sushi rice, boiled deskinned chicken, a bit of peeled pear, and loads of butter. Three times a day..

    Even with the white rice and pears I need to take at least 6 Phenol Assist ,,, I am that bad.. white rice and pears being so low in sals..

    I just know how big a difference one little vitamin deficiency can make that I would hate to be not having some of everything. In my experience for instance with my chronic staph infections I need lots of zinc.. Now the only zinc I have found,, ie zinc carbonate is no longer being manufactured by Thorne products.. and so I am screwed once again.. It is such a mammoth job trying to keep alive.. I

    I like the carrot juice idea .. and take loads of Phenol Assist. and hope for a lottery win to afford all this eh>!!!!>??
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2010
     
    Hi Black Wizard, I can't be sure of anything I say on this site! :) Since I am not a chemist, it's mostly hypothesis and conjecture.
    Fresh apple, no - baked apple YES!!!!
    Raw potato, a few slices (I've tried this for the added nutrients) - cooked potato, all I want
    Raw onion, no - cooked onion, yes, a whole one with my steak!
    raw walnuts, 2 or 3, roasted walnuts, a handful
    fresh strawberries, 1-2 - frozen, no problem
    fresh banana, a little - baked, no problem
    fresh orange and juice, not a sip - frozen - cupful

    As I'm writing this down, I just remembered that I can eat fresh banana with ice cream without a problem, and I mix some milk in with the orange juice (to make an orange julius) Maybe their is something in the milk that lowers the sal content or does something else. I know that when I eat food in combination with other foods, I have a higher tolerance, like the magic spagetti sauce. I always have some ice cream after the meal, and some butter before.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2010
     
    Nancy, this is what my body allowed when I was at my worst, probably for about a year, this was my staple, of course I ate other food, but I always fell back on this: microwaved potato (I know), canned sweet peas, (I know), low fat hamburger, romain lettuce, a little carrot, and apple juice. There was not one piece of fruit that I could tolerate. I ate a large romain salad every day, (NO DRESSING) and suprisingly, now I realize it contains a good amount of omega -3. So, maybe the large amount of omega -3, as compared to the low amount of fat I was taking in, helped the healing process for me. I would suggest you stop the butter. Have you tried some romain yet? Rita
    • CommentAuthorMoralAnimal
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2010 edited
     
    Rita.... I think I might know why some food combinations let you tolerate higher sal levels. I am studying biochemisty and molecular biology in school and last quarter I took an herbology course and so I dug up my notes from class and also found this on wikipedia:

    According to Wikipedia on the page about aspirin (you can skip this paragraph and go to the next one where I translated it if you want), "About 50–80% of salicylate in the blood is bound by protein while the rest remains in the active, ionized state; protein binding is concentration-dependent. Saturation of binding sites leads to more free salicylate and increased toxicity. The volume of distribution is 0.1–0.2 l/kg. Acidosis increases the volume of distribution because of enhancement of tissue penetration of salicylates.[123]"..... "Salicylic acid has an ototoxic effect by inhibiting prestin.[19] It can induce transient hearing loss in zinc-deficient individuals."

    .... what that says is that salicylic acid binds with proteins in our body, and does so most readily when our blood ph is more acidic and zinc deficient. Salicylic acid also preferentially binds to the proteins in our ears, which causes the ringing (tinnitus), but will also bind to anything else too that looks like a protein that is similar to the ones in our ears that cause ringing.

    So, hypothetically.... eating salicylates with certain types of proteins (and apparently in conjunction with alkaline causing foods high in zinc as well) would cause the salicylates to bind to the protein you are eating instead of binding to proteins in your body and causing all the havoc that we experience once it gets into our blood stream. for every 100-200 milliliters of salicylate you ingest, you could technically "neutralize" it with approx. 1 kg of pure protein.

    this is why baking soda in water can help mitigate a reaction because it reduces the acidity in our blood temporarily so that the salicylic acid can get filtered out (and we pee it out) before it binds to our proteins and makes us react to it. That is also why taking zinc supplements increases our sal tolerance, and why eating ice cream or adding milk (both have animal proteins in them) to sal-full foods lets you tolerate more of it. I'm not sure why freezing or cooking food would help, because salicylates are plant hormones and hormones don't break down by themselves easily without an enzyme assisting the process. Freezing (or heat) tends to break apart enzymes. There is probably an indirect correlation somewhere that makes the salicylates less potent. Maybe the hormone is not exceptionally stable, since it has a half-life of only 24-30 hours, so it breaks apart quicker when exposed to heat or cold?

    Since I am new to this diet, I would be very interested in whether or not any of this rings true to anyone and/or if it actually helps.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2010 edited
     
    Moral, Wow. Very cool information. If we look at my original diet, we can see that the foods that my body allowed fit into the research and science that we know to be true. If we say, for instance, that a person has arrived at being ss by having a lowered ability to digest protein, then, that person could become zinc deficient. I had many symptoms of zinc deficiency. The foods that my body allowed me to eat were high in zinc: potatoes, peas, beef and chicken. I was also able to eat almonds, beans and peanuts to some degree which are also good sources of zinc. However, I did try taking zinc supplements, but they gave me a dizzy reaction. I could just have been taking too high a dose for myself. I also was always able to drink apple juice inriched with vitamin c, which I have just found out increases the absorption of zinc! Then there is the romain lettuce (WITH NO DRESSING!) which gave me the omega 3's I need, without having to fight with the omega 6's that would have came with the dressing.

    So, it's not just any protein, but whatever protein and enzymes that are in ice cream that helps me, because milk and butter to a lesser extent zap my energy, where ice cream is my quick fix for extra energy. Maybe it also has something to do with the freezing process also. I do have to mention that eating ice cream does cause problems for me with yeast, and also with congestion and also it contains estrogen. That's why I only eat it once in a while. Maybe the secret is to only have a small amount. So, it's not just what food are you eating, but which foods are you NOT eating and in what combinations. Thank you Moralanimal. Your hard work in your classes are benefiting us all. Keep learning!!!
    • CommentAuthornanciswell
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2010 edited
     
    Could it also be said that with the need for zinc our immunity is lowered and thus the intolerance is worse due to this system?? Or else there is another system like hormones affecting the zinc?? .

    I find that the worse off my immunity.. ie with an infection.. the more Phenol Assist I need to take.

    I have a high need for zinc, I know as soon as I am way too low my shins will start to itch like crazy. ONe day of more zinc and the itchiness goes away. Also the infections I often have get out of hand. I have had a chronic staph infection ongoing now for 20 years and if I get too low this infection that is normally just in my salivary gland moves to another part of my face etc.. . I also continue to have chronic ecoli infections.. As soon as these are more rampant getting a kidney/ bladder infection my need for Phenol Assist enzymes which break down the sals is greater per meal..
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2010 edited
     
    I think it's a malabsorption problem. Lowered zinc causing lowered immunity too. One site says,
    "Dietary fiber is a part of wheat and vegetables that is not typically well digested. Excessive fiber in the diet can inhibit the absorption of zinc by binding to it. This makes the zinc unavailable to the body and it passes out of the body through the intestines. Many grain products, which are high in fiber, also contain phytic acid, which inhibits the absorption of zinc.
    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/37132-foods-block-zinc-absorption/#ixzz17C1IJWIx

    Which could be another reason my body rejects high fibrous foods like the brown in rice and the whole in wheat. Just the white for me, please. Not the most nutritious, but the lesser of two evils for me.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2010
     
    I'm rethinking the milk. The baked apples and bananas are usually eaten in a pie, which usually contains milk and some whipped cream. And I put milk with the orange juice. But fresh milk makes me phlemy, the frozen milk does not.
  11.  
    Nancy.... many white blood cells require zinc in order to fight. Without zinc, our immunity is almost non-existent. Zinc is kinda like the key to make the white blood cell/immune cell turn "on". Every time it fights something, it looses it's zinc ion and needs another one before it can fight again. The body is probably going to preferentially use zinc for our immune cells before anything else, but of course if other things are readily available (like fiber), then it will get locked up by that too, which makes even less zinc available in the blood to mitigate a sal reaction. Interestingly, I discovered today that zinc plays a vital role in maintaining the alkalinity of our blood. Without zinc, the blood becomes more acidic, and thus salicylates can bind to our proteins in our blood better.

    Rita... your diet of zinc foods is very similar to mine. I was eating a lot of walnuts and seeds too. So cool! The more "processed" milk is, the less protein it has in it. Butter is not going to have a whole lot in it. Neither will ghee. Cream or ice cream on the other hand is going to have concentrated amounts of milk protein, because the water has been partially evaporated to make it thicker. The milk protein is called casein and it is what makes cheese stretchy. Cheese is super high in protein. Unfortunately, I am allergic to several different non-animal proteins: casein, gluten, corn and soy protein too. :-( I've been finding that I am eating a lot more gluten free grains, which are high in their own proteins but are also high in carbs/sugars, and it is making my candida problems horrible! I'm not sure what to eat.
  12.  
    What do you take for candida Moral??

    I am able to keep it in check with taking the PHenol Assist enzymes which taken without carbs breaks down the candida cell wall.. Also caprylic acid taken with the PA... I react to the gelatin capsule so sqeeze the oil out of the capsules. I take around 3-6 daily.. Plus a dairy free , human microflora acidophilus I can thankfully tolerate.

    nanci
  13.  
    im not taking anything at the moment. i wasn't aware there was something that could be taken. I'm trying to manage it with diet. I have an appointment with my naturopath on tuesday and I plan on bringing it up.
  14.  
    Well, this is very interesting. Thanks for sharing your education with us, MoralAnimal, and for being so observant, Rita. I can't be sure that protein or zinc have helped me tolerate salicylates, but I've been eating butternut pumpkin and peeled zucchini shortly after eating beef without too many problems, whereas the walnuts which gave me heart pain were not eaten with any significant source of protein or zinc. I have also been taking Musashi powdered glycine lately, which seems to help, but had run out of it on the day I ate the walnuts.
    • CommentAuthornanciswell
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2010 edited
     
    Hi Moral

    People take something called Candex to kill off the candida. I myself reacted to that , The Phenol Assist which I take anyways to help with eating sals , also does the very same thing as the Candex.. THe company is Kirkman laboratories who manufacturers it.
  15.  
    sweet, thanks nanci.
    • CommentAuthornanciswell
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2010 edited
     
    kirkman not krikman
  16.  
    It may be that calcium can bind to salicylate and "disable" it. I haven't found it easy to get information on the solubility of calcium salicylate, but it seems to be insoluble or slightly soluble in water - the question is the degree to which it is broken down by stomach acid.
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2010 edited
     
    I know that the reason that I add butter to spagetti sauce it because it mellows out the tart flavor of the tomatoes. Also, the milk cuts the tanginess of the orange juice, so I think dairy does somehow neutralize it as Moral stated. Come to think of it, my sibling says that they feel better after taking a calcium supplement.
    • CommentAuthorruthb
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2010
     
    Would it also explain why I seem to be able to tolerate occasional milk-based coffee drinks, even though I seem to be mildly lactose-intolerant, whereas coffee with just a dash of milk or without seems to bother me?
  17.  
    Rita, that's interesting about the calcium supplement. I have read something which said that calcium supplements shouldn't be taken at the same time as sulphate, because they bind together, but hopefully it can still help with salicylate sensitivity.

    Ruth, there seems to be some solid evidence that proteins can help, whereas my idea about calcium is more speculative, as you may have gathered. There are also other possibilities. The milk-based coffee drinks might be lower in caffeine, which apparently is correlated with the salicylate content of coffee, or something in milk might protect against the caffeine. The milk-based drinks could also be lower in other toxins, such as fluoride and chlorine.
    • CommentAuthorMoralAnimal
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2010 edited
     
    milk added to coffee actually makes it more caffeinated. Protein and caffeine are both amines, and tannins (what makes coffee bitter) bind with amines. When milk protein binds with the tannins in the coffee, it displaces the caffeine-tannin bond, thus freeing up more caffeine molecules to float around. Salicylates seem to hypothetically bind with certain proteins too. So milk-based coffee drinks kinda kill two birds with one stone. lol (and it you are lactose-intolerant, the milk is too busy binding with the stuff in the coffee to do as much damage as normal. in addition, if you drink raw milk, which contains it's own lactose enzyme- lactase, which lactose-intolerant folks don't manufacture enough of or at all, you would also be able to tolerate milk based products in almost any context. Too bad its illegal to sell raw milk here in the USA)
    • CommentAuthorruthb
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2010
     
    That's really interesting! So if I am going to have the occasional coffee, stick to the lattes.

    Intersting too about raw milk, not that it helps if we can't get it, but just another reminder of how our processing and meddling with food, while there are often reasons for it, interferes with the balances built into nature.

    Thanks fro the information.
  18.  
    MoralAnimal, could you explain in more detail how lactose is made less harmful by coffee? I'm also lactose intolerant.
    • CommentAuthorMoralAnimal
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2010 edited
     
    sorry black wizards. That is all that I know about milk that I learned in class. From what I understand though, casein is the milk protein (and thus an amine) and tannins bind only to amines. Lactose is a sugar and requires an enzyme to break it down. Raw milk contains lactase (the paired lactose enzyme) as does products such as lactaid milk or you can buy lactase enzymes too (I'm not sure where you would get them in the USA, but when I lived in Germany you can go to the Apothecary/Pharmacy).
    • CommentAuthorHolly B
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2010
     
    very interesting thread. I am going to get some zinc. And not feel bad about eating meat. Chicken and raw milk are now staples of my limited diet.
    It is possible to get raw milk in the USA. It is legal to sell in some states. it is not illegal to drink. Many people do transport it across state lines in an act of civil disobedience.
    • CommentAuthorpudding
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2010
     
    I would suggest no, probably not, or at least not in all cases as when I was little and refusing to eat veg, I used to be able to eat raw, peeled carrot sticks, but had, what I now recognise as a reaction, to cooked carrots and couldn't stomach them.
    • CommentAuthorJtoz54
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2011
     
    This explains why I crave ice cream every night. I knew there had to be a good reason.
    • CommentAuthorRob_
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2013
     
    Hi All,
    Nice work.

    I'll try to post more when I have time, but this link has a great source of Salicylate and Oxalate food concentrations:
    http://www.thecaptainslady.com/Oxalates%20&%20Salicylates.pdf

    It also suggests calcium citrate 3 x 500mg daily and equal quatiities of magnesium can help bind with the salicylates and thus lessen their impact. SO the milk theory fits with that.

    I had thought I only had salicylate intolerance but recently had some celery (low sals, high Oxalates) and found it gave me a reaction similar to MSG (foggy head, felt sick and slightly hungover).
    • CommentAuthornanciswell
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2013
     
    Yeh the celery with me as well.. I am not convinced it is oxalates as it is high in something else as well .. sorry cannot remmeber.. The other food that did the same thing was cashews so whether celery and cashews have the same thing other than the definite high ox I dont know.. I would get a sore liver on the cashews and the celery.. And when I was on the low ox protocal and felt I was dumping oxalates I had a return to that same painful liver without having eaten any celery nor cashews.. so does point to oxalates..
    • CommentAuthorJtoz54
    • CommentTimeOct 24th 2013
     
    If you are allergic to birch trees you will have a reaction to Celery. (See OAS, oral allergy syndrome). Also regular celery (not organic) and cashews are high in pesticides. I read that wherever cashews are grown they are sprayed with pesticides but it wouldnt be listed on the package of course.