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    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012 edited
     
    http://fedup.com.au/factsheets/support-factsheets/managing-salicylate-intolerance-with-capsaicin-an-open-trial

    Hmmm.....interesting!!!

    Very!!!

    What do you all think?
    BW what do you think?
  1.  
    Of course we've known for a long time that capsaicin could be used as a treatment, it was just a matter of whether the potential side-effects were worth it, and the salicylate which comes with chilies and chilli powder. I didn't realise that it reduced the absorption of salicylate, though, which is important. The mode of action of capsaicin is much more complicated than indicated on that web page. I don't completely understand it, but I'm fairly sure it desensitises partly by destroying neurons through excess calcium influx and partly by depleting them of inflammatory and algesic neuropeptides. I think dephosphorylation of TRPV1 is also involved, and other mechanisms. They avoided the question of why capsaicin is safe and salicylate isn't, even though they both activate TRPV1, but good on them for giving it a go. Even though capsaicin might not be entirely safe, it does have the advantage of being a known entity. It would be interesting to know how much of the effect is from reduced salicylate absorption, and how much is from desensitisation. It appears that it is mainly the former, because they said that they needed to take the capsaicin before every high salicylate meal, whereas capsaicin desensitisation is long-lasting. Presumably a higher capsaicin intake would result in greater desensitisation. Apparently treatment with agonists and antagonists can go together, so that's another strategy. Hopefully the trial will get the ball rolling, and there will be some more research in the near future, and not just on capsaicin. They said that the capsaicin treatment only works for salicylate, not other chemicals. It's possible that reduced absorption is specific to salicylate, but if you were to actually desensitise it should work for other TRPV1 activators, and probably also other TRP activators to some degree. I suspect that they're trying not to get people's hopes up too much with the remarks about other chemicals, or maybe they don't realise yet that at least some of the other problem chemicals are very likely to also be TRPV1 activators.

    I had an Indian girlfriend for a few years, and ate very hot food just about every day during that time. My health started to deteriorate after a while, although I had already started getting hives beforehand. We went to Europe for about 6 months, and were drinking spring water while there. My health was very good all of a sudden, despite being stressed and skint, as the English say, which in hindsight was obviously due to lowered fluoride intake. However, during the last few weeks I got a bad cold and had some gastrointestinal issues, which I had thought might be wheat or salicylate or chilli intake catching up with me. Recently I discovered that the fluoride content of Asda spring water is quite high, and I was only shopping at Asda during those last few weeks. I can't remember which brand of water I bought, but it would have almost certainly been the cheapest, which would almost certainly have been the Asda brand. So getting to the point, the chilies may have actually protected me from everything except fluoride, and maybe also lactose, which was the only thing I was deliberately avoiding at that stage.
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    I think your right and that its the reduction of the bioavailibility of salicylates that is the main factor here, along with other mechanisms. They didn't say if they had any side affects from the chili powder. So you think it may not be safe? Apparently the salicylates contained in it didn't matter, must be as long as the capsaicin reached the receptors to block the salicylates.
    I also found it very interesting that she had no issues with inhaled salicylates while on the chili powder! Or in other words , trpv1 was not being activated by fragrance.
    I'll be happy to do a trial on this!
    • CommentAuthorPossum
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012 edited
     
    Sounds promising shanee?! But I still reckon there is no one size fits all in this...;-) Just as we all have different levels of tolerance, we can also be 1 of 4 different bloodtypes & even within those types, there are different (genotype) subsets of BT's...& of course different levels of gut damage etc

    I personally really think/know there *must* be a connection there?! Which imo is why we all react differently & a few things work for some of us & not for others??!!
    • CommentAuthorFantazmic
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    The mere thought of taking chilli powder makes me feel sick...as I know what sort of reactions I get from chillis

    I just couldnt be part of the trial....Id probably have a reaction from the placebo !!

    however if it does become a treatment for some people and it helps them then that is wonderful
    • CommentAuthormarieling
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    Dear All
    I am going to be a guinea pig and give this a go. I've recently been able to tolerate some dairy (yay) - which they recommend to mix it with and I have noted that drinking camomile tea whilst experimenting with a curry about 6 months ago stopped the burning pain at that time - it didn't stop a temporary flare-up of what felt like arthritic pain (stiff and sore) fingers, so we will see.I will keep you updated.

    Kind Regards
    Marie
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    Great Marie!! I'll look forward to your updates!! I plan on doing it also. I'm not sure exactly when, still researching a few aspects of it.
    Good luck !
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    I know that some of my worst reactions...the ER reactions, as I "affectionately" refer to them...were from ingesting foods with chilli powder. I'm very curious to see if this works, though. Obviously the right amount of capsaicin is everything.
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012 edited
     
    Chilli powder often has a whole mixture of other spices in it. It would have to be pure chilli powder...
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    Yes I think the link they recommend for chilli powder is for an organic pure one.
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    And they were using loose cayenne from the looks of it. That's what I'm going to try, if I build up enough courage to do this. :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2012
     
    Can't wait to hear how it goes, Marie!
    • CommentAuthorlindyd
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2012
     
    Well done Marie.. look forward to hearing about your progress!
    xx
  2.  
    shanee, they mentioned heartburn and an increased risk for one type of cancer. I imagine that a higher intake which produces lasting desensitisation would be much more likely to have significant side effects. Journal articles have been written on the subject of capsaicin treatment, but I haven't paid much attention to them so far. The question which is intriguing me is whether other agonists, and also antagonists, reduce the bioavailability of salicylates, or if that is something peculiar to capsaicin.
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2012
     
    I know I'm researching that same aspect now too!
    Yea the side effects seem to be on the light side, to me anyways, unless like you say it will increase with higher intake. Perhaps.

    I have a lot of questions regarding this now, including yours. A lot will depend on more of the trial results too, then I'll have even more, or some may be answered.
    :)
    Also, what other chemicals bioavailability may be reduced because capsaicin is being used as the preferred receptor binder? And will it work for more than this one trpv1 activator? What other substances can we keep the trpv1 receptor busy with? Lot's of questions :)
    • CommentAuthorSheila
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2012
     
    Hi Black Wizard......(English?)....... you mentioned the spring water you drank in France, can you remember far back to what brand it was ? I have no flouride in my water from the tap, but there is chlorine in it (chloride !) which is which?.
    Can I ask, do you still have hives, or is it a histamine reaction. Very similar, I seem to have both whenever it flares up.

    For those who are worried about the chilli aspect. Well, you could take dark choc. containing chilli. I am addicted to choc. What woman isn't....... and sometimes have chilli choc.
    Also do you remember the film "chocolat" where an ancient chocolate drink was made to calm people, it contained chilli power just sprinkled over the top. I have tried this - just as a drink and it is delicious.
  3.  
    I don't think I said anything about France. I was mostly in London, drinking spring water from Tesco, Sainsbury's, or Safeway - probably the store brand from each. My hives have almost completely disappeared.
    • CommentAuthorFantazmic
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    The water in england was sooo bad...we filtered everything when we were there....my husband who doesnt have any food intolerance couldnt stand it.....
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    I tried a quarter teaspoon of pure cayenne mixed with a tablespoon of regular cream cheese about two hours ago, and I'm fine. I'm going to see how I wake up tomorrow. If no reactions, then I might take some more cayenne, and then eat something with a moderate to high amount of salicylates, and see how I do. Anyone else trying this? Having luck?
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Hmm, your brave:) cayenne has more salicylates. I'm rallying with you that you have no reactions!

    I'm going to do it as soon as I get some pure chilli powder. What are your typical reactions usually experienced in the 1st 24 hours?
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Cayenne is what they were using in the experiment. Notice that the link they recommended, too, takes you to cayenne pills: http://www.herbosophy.com.au/search.php?search_query=cayenne&x=0&y=0
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Oh...and normally I would first get hives, then itchy skin, then upset stomach, then watery eyes, etc... I usually wake up with a host of new symptoms if I'm reacting badly...including facial edema, red swollen eyes, severe bloating, etc. So the real test will be to see how I'm feeling tomorrow morning.
  4.  
    This PhD thesis is good for a general understanding of nociceptors, receptors, and ion channels. The information on TRPV1 antagonists doesn't take into account that they don't cause hyperthermia if they don't block TRPV1 activation by acidity.

    Nociceptors and the Perception of Pain
    Alan Fein, Revised 2012
    In contrast to the hyperalgesia (excessive sensitiveness or sensibility to pain) following
    intense noxious stimuli, exposure to capsaicin can result in a subsequent desensitization.
    Whereas desensitization to comparatively low doses of capsaicin may be specific for
    capsaicin and its congeners desensitization to higher doses is associated with a loss of
    responsiveness to other chemicals, heat and noxious (high threshold) mechanical stimuli.
    This cross desensitization of noxious stimuli by capsaicin suggests the use of capsaicin or
    an analog of it as an analgesic. Of course the ultimate goal, not yet achieved, is to find an
    analog of capsaicin that induces analgesia without first causing pain.
    Capsaicin desensitization is well documented, with the extent of desensitization
    depending on the capsaicin concentration, how frequently it is applied and for how long.
    Capsaicin induced desensitization has been observed both by recording the activity of
    DRG neurons as well as by monitoring behavioral (pain) reactions. With low doses of
    capsaicin given at appropriate time intervals, desensitization does not necessarily take
    place so that painful excitation can be reproduced with each capsaicin application. With
    higher doses or prolonged exposure desensitization ensues and consecutive applications
    of capsaicin become less effective or fail to produce any effect.
    Recently a novel method for producing analgesia using capsaicin in combination with a
    membrane impermeable local anesthetic (QX-314) has been described (Binshtok, Bean et
    al. 2007). QX-314 is a positively charged blocker of voltage gated sodium channels, that
    inhibits action potentials when applied intracellularly but fails to block when applied
    extracellularly. The idea was to introduce QX-314 intracellularly to pain sensing neurons
    through the open TRPV1 channel, thereby avoiding the motor and tactile effects that
    occur with the extracellular application of local anesthetics such as lidocaine. We have all
    probably experienced the inhibition of motor control and tactile senses with the use of
    local anesthetics during dental procedures. One limitation of the combination treatment is
    the same as with the use of capsaicin alone and that is the capsaicin itself causes a painful
    sensation, which with the combination treatment is expected to last until the QX-314
    takes effect.
    Inhibition of TRPV1 would seem to be a simple approach for producing analgesia.
    However the situation is not that simple; following the identification of TRPV1 in
    nociceptors a variety of cell types including keratinocyes, pancreatic β cells, endothelial
    cells, lymphocytes, macrophages and cells from different regions of the brain were shown
    to also express TRPV1. Its presence in all these cell types in different parts of the body
    suggests that TRPV1 is normally stimulated by an endogenous ligand (endovanilloid) and
    not by thermal stimulation. In this context it is important to point out that there is
    accumulating evidence suggesting that activation of TRPV1 by its endogenous ligand is
    essential for the maintenance of internal body temperature. Capsaicin in addition to
    eliciting the sensation of burning also causes hypothermia in a variety of animals and
    introduction of TRPV1 antagonists leads to hyperthermia in rats, mice, monkeys and
    man. One suggestion arising from these studies is that the TRPV1 channels, which
    function in the regulation of body temperature, are tonically activated via an endogenous
    ligand. Because TRPV1 antagonists cause hyperthermia it is unlikely that they can
    developed for use systemically as standalone agents for the treatment of pain.
  5.  
    I think they meant complementary, not complimentary.

    Capsaicin (TRPV1 Agonist) Therapy for Pain Relief: Farewell or Revival?
    Knotkova, Helena ... 2008
    Objective: In this review, we explain our current understanding of the molecular basis for pain relief by capsaicin and other transient receptor potential vanilloid subfamily, member 1 (TRPV1) agonists. We summarize disease-related changes in TRPV1 expression and its implications for therapy and potential adverse effects. Last, we provide an overview of the current clinical uses of topical and injectable TRPV1 agonist preparations in both oncologic and nononcologic populations.
    Method: Search of MEDLINE and other databases.
    Results: The capsaicin receptor TRPV1 is a polymodal nociceptor exhibiting a dynamic threshold of activation that could be lowered under inflammatory conditions. Consistent with this model, TRPV1 knock-out mice are devoid of post-inflammatory thermal hyperalgesia. TRPV1 desensitization of primary sensory neurons is a powerful approach to relieve symptoms of nociceptive behavior in animal models of chronic pain. However, over-the-counter capsaicin creams have shown moderate to poor analgesic efficacy. This is in part related to low dose, poor skin absorption, and compliance factors. Recently developed site-specific capsaicin therapy with high-dose patches and injectable preparations seem to be safe and reportedly provide long-lasting analgesia with rapid onset.
    Conclusions: We argue that TRPV1 agonists and antagonists are not mutually exclusive but rather complimentary pharmacologic approaches for pain relief and we predict a revival for capsaicin and other TRPV1 agonists in the clinical management of pain associated with inflammation, metabolic imbalances (eg, diabetes), infections (HIV), and cancer, despite the current focus of the pharmaceutical industry on TRPV1 antagonists.
  6.  
    Piperine, which is in black pepper, might be a good alternative to capsaicin. It is supposed to desensitise TRPV1 more effectively than capsaicin, but it's complicated by the fact that it also activates TRPA1, and there are other compounds in black pepper which also activate both receptors. I'm not sure about the effect on salicylate bioavailability, either.

    Effect Of Piperine On Liver Damage And Bone Changes Caused By Bile Duct Ligation In Rats

    Omar M.E. Abdel Salam ... 2008
    In the present study, we have shown that piperine, the active principle of black pepper and a common dietary additive, is able to protect in a dose-dependent manner against hepatic damage caused by bile duct ligation in rats. Other researchers have shown that piperine protected against tert-butyl hydroperoxide and carbon tetrachloride hepatotoxicity(15). In a previous study, it was shown that capsaicin, the active principle of hot red and green pepper and a legend for the vanilloid receptor (TRPV1) reduced hepatic injury caused by the hepatotoxin CCl4 in rats. Liver enzymes (alanine transaminase, aspartate transaminase) in the serum and liver necrosis evaluated histologically were significantly reduced in the capsaicin-treated rats. The CCl4-related disturbances of cellular dysfunction indicated by reduced glycogen and protein content and DNA alterations were ameliorated by capsaicin(21). In the digestive tract, capsaicin-sensitive afferent innvervation participates in nocioception, gastroprotection and intestino-intestinal activation of inhibitory refexes. Sensory neuron stimulation by intragastric administration of capsaicin protects the gastric mucosa of experimental animals against a variety of injurious factors, whereas ablation of extrinsic afferent neurons with a neurotoxic dose of capsaicin impaired gastric mucosal defense with the resultant exacerbation of the chemical-induced injury.(22,23,24) Similar protective effects for sensory nerve stimulation has been demonstrated in the colon(25). In the stomach, sensory neuron-mediated protection of the mucosa involves the protective rise of gastric mucosal blood flow caused by the release of CGRP.(26,27,28) The latter is a potent vasodilator and has been shown to prevent experimental gastric and colonic injury.(29,30,31) Piperine also activates vanilloid receptors (32,33) and although piperine was a less potent agonist than capsaicin , it demonstrated a much greater efficacy (approximately two-fold) at TRPV1.(7) Piperine also showed gastric mucosal protective properties(12,34), but unlike capsaicin, the mechanism of which is not yet elucidated.
    Piperine is well absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract of rat. After oral or intraperitoneal administration, about 97% was absorbed irrespective of the mode of dosing. About 1-2.5% of the intraperitoneally administered piperine was detected in the liver during 0.5-6 h after administration as contrasted with 0.1-0.25% of the orally administered dose(35). When sacs of rat intestines were incubated with piperine, about 44-63% of piperine disappeared from the mucosal side with 7-12% of the absorbed piperine being found in the serosal fluid(36).
    It in this way that piperine which activates vanilloid receptors (32,33), can reach hepatobiliary tract and excite sensory nerve endings. Piperine was shown to evoke the release of substance P and CGRP, respectively, from sensory nerves (37,38). The potency ratio between piperine and capsaicin in releasing substance P, however, is 1/50 (38).
    The rat hepatobiliary tract is densely innervated by CGRP-containing fibers form dense networks in the fibromuscular layer of the biliary tree and surrounding the portal vein. This suggests the involvement of these peptidergic visceral afferents in regulating hepatobiliary activities, including hemodynamic functions of the hepatic vasculature (39).
    Piperine also can reduce hepatic tissue injury by virtue of its antioxidant properties. In this context, it has been shown that piperine exerted a significant protection against tert-butyl hydroperoxide and carbon tetrachloride hepatotoxicity by reducing both in vitro and in vivo lipid peroxidation, and by preventing the depletion of glutathione and total thiols in the intoxicated mice (15). In rats fed a high-fat diet Simultaneous supplementation with black pepper or piperine maintained superoxide dismutase, catalase and reduced glutathione in the liver (9).
    Metabolic bone disease is common among patients with chronic liver disease with osteoporosis accounting for the majority of cases (40) (Rouillard and Lane, 2001). Osteopenia is a classic complication of chronic cholestasis related to primary biliary cirrhosis or primary sclerosing cholangitis (41,42) (Heathcote, 2000; Le Gars, 2002). Both decreased osteoblastic activity and increased osteoclastic activity contribute to the development of osteoporosis in PBC patients (43) (Hodgson et al., 1985).
    The present study has in addition demonstrated that bile duct ligation for one month is associated with marked bone changes in the form of gaps in the matrix of the tissue with widening of the canals normally present. The internal surface of the bone showed irregularities and invasion at some points. These bone alterations appear to be decreased by piperine treatment with a decrease in number of the gaps in the bone matrix together with an increase in the amount of collagenous fibers in the matrix of bone tissue and increased density of the bone matrix. The mechanism by which piperine affect bone is not clear and the clinical significance of these findings is yet to be elucidated in view of the fact that piperine is a dietary constituent in humans.
    • CommentAuthorSheila
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012 edited
     
    Hi BW. So..... are you still having spring water from these supermarkets ? and has it cured your hives ?????
    I assume you meant you took the cheaper brand names at that time. If you think flouride is a problem, there would not of course be any in the spring water. So a significant improvement in symptoms should be evident.

    Of course there is another argument... that it is actually lack of water that causes a histamine release into the tissues. I must say I have seen some evidence of this being true with myself.
    My tap water does not contain flouride, but if I drink enough of it the histamine reaction tends to die down.
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Here's hoping you wake up this morning feeling fine vesper!

    BW again, great info! I may try pepper! I like the aspect of it not depleting glutathione and maintaining reduced glutathione.
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Well...the cayenne they suggested and the dose the suggested made me react. (I took 1mg of cayenne yesterday, just once, just after noon.) By around 8pm last night I started feeling not right, and could hardly think straight. So there was definitely a long delay to the start of the reactions. I just woke up with swollen eyes, facial edema, shooting nerve pains in my back, and brain fog. So...not trying that again. I may try again with pure chili powder...as shanee mentioned, it's lower in sals.
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Sorry you reacted! Hope they get over with quick. But eh, you live you learn huh? Hopefully the chilli powder will work out. I looked at my local grocers last night for it, but only found cayenne pepper. I'm going to order some organic chilli powder today though, and will be trying this next week when it gets here. So I'll be following in your footsteps, but hopefully without the reaction.

    Maybe take some acetaminophen and some baking soda? Hope you feel better, thanks for letting us know how it went, and being the first guinea pig:)
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    :) My boyfriend and I are trying to find pure chili powder, and finding it difficult. First of all...there are so many types of chilies....so what is red chili powder REALLY? Cayenne is one type of chili...so if you buy plain ground chili, how do you know what type of chili it is? It very well could be cayenne, or some other chili with a similar salicylate content as cayenne.

    The reaction has gotten worse. I feel awful. I have a photoshoot tomorrow (I'm a photographer), so I need this to go away! :) I've taken some baking soda...and now just waiting it out. Brain fog central!!!
    • CommentAuthorPossum
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012 edited
     
    Wow!! Hope you feel better soon Vesper!!
    Risky doing something like this a day or two before a project/job? It takes me forever to trial things for that very reason...you almost have to be able to hibernate?!
    I would stay away from black pepper unless it is organic & freshly ground btw.... High risk of mould otherwise...
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Well I didn't know I was going to have the photoshoot. Just got it today. That's how my industry is. Can't change that. :)

    Feeling quite a bit better now. Couple doses of baking soda, and lots of water. Took a couple naps today, too. Definitely one of the worst reactions I've had in awhile.
    • CommentAuthorPossum
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Glad you are feeling better - magic stuff that bicarb!!
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2012 edited
     
    http://www.vitacost.com/Starwest-Botanicals-Organic-Chili-Pepper-Powder-Medium-Roast#nutritionFacts

    I'm ordering this one.

    Edit- here is the back of the package
    Ingredients: Organic capsicum annum (chili pepper) powder, medium roast.
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2012 edited
     
    Thanks BW for the info! Still reading aka trying to comprehend it all.:)
    • CommentAuthorHelencat
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2012
     
    Vesper ((((hugs)))) Hope you feel better soon
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2012 edited
     
    Thank you, Possum and Helencat.

    No matter how many times I read the information on the page, I can't comprehend how they showed "red chili" as being so low in sals and cayenne as being quite high, yet it's cayenne that they used and recommended for the "experiment" because of its "hot properties". It's not clear at all what kind of chili is used in all ground chili powder. It could be any type of chili pepper. I was under the impression that cayenne peppers create a kind of medium chili powder...not too bland, not too hot. After this reaction, I'm pretty terrified to try anything else.

    I'm thinking that the two people who created this experiment must not be major reactors. They seemed to be able to tolerate moderate category foods even before introducing the cayenne to their diets. I'm only able to handle some foods in the low category. This could be why I reacted so freakishly. What was interesting was the delay in reaction. I didn't feel ANYTHING until several hours after ingestion.
  7.  
    Hi Sheila. I'm actually Australian, and it's been a long time since I was in England. I did notice that my hives dramatically improved while there, but it took me a long time to find out why that was. It's not true that there is no fluoride in spring water, but European spring waters are generally low to very low in fluoride, with the Asda brand being an exception to the rule. There have been a few times when I drank a lot of fluoridated tapwater to try to improve my health, but it had the opposite effect, and certainly didn't help with the hives. When I finally avoided fluoride and actually paid attention to what the effects might be, I noticed a dramatic improvement in the hives in just a few days, and that's when my experience in England and a whole lot of other things started to make sense.
  8.  
    Before I forget, I looked for other things which affect the bioavailability of aspirin or salicylate, and tamarind increases bioavailability, and maybe also fat. Some NSAIDs, including diclofenac and ibuprofen, reduce bioavailability, as does activated charcoal.

    With desensitisation using capsaicin or another TRP agonist, it would probably be best to start with a low dose and build up, and only then introduce more salicylates to your diet. It isn't an agonist, but I've been taking Yerba Santa before meals instead of after them over the last few days, and it seems to be working.
    • CommentAuthormarieling
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2012 edited
     
    Hi All
    Just reporting my results with the cayenne pepper trial.
    So I received the cayenne pepper from the link recommended in the trial. First dose (day 1 in the evening) - mild burning pain (?mild reflux) and very watery eyes, felt good. Day 2 (3 doses) - ?reflux pain at a mild level, fingers and neck starting to get stiff. These symptoms decreased with each salicylate dose (e.g. water melon, granny smith apple), but as the day progressed my mood decreased - becoming a bit agitated and impatient (I haven't had this problem for a few months). Day 3 - woke up with very stiff fingers and neck. Took one dose of chilli with an apple - pain intensified.

    I decided to stop here as when I previously ate a curry the pain and stiffness in my fingers and neck lasted for nearly a month, and I don't fancy going through that again. It is quite possible that if I had persisted and "pushed through" these symptoms I might have had success, but my tolerance levels are good enough that I'm not that desperate. It's also quite possible that if I had started with a low dose (as I did with chamomile) and worked up that I might have had better results (but I thought I would do as the trial recommended and start with a bigger rather than smaller dose) - I might try that option down the track.

    Kind Regards
    Marie
  9.  
    In the pilot trial the 1st phase, which lasted one week, involved taking a smaller dose of cayenne powder than used later, and eating a low salicylate diet. That may have been very important, because the initial effect of capsaicin is sensitisation and up-regulation of TRPV1, and it's only after repeated or continuous exposure that desensitisation occurs. Also, you'd expect whatever has the highest capsaicin to salicylate ratio to work best. There might be a medical product which would be suitable, or something you could get from a chemical supply company. The higher the capsaicin concentration the more careful you need to be not to burn yourself with it, though, especially your eyes. Vanillin is a metabolite of capsaicin so that might cause a reaction, although it's only produced in small quantities. Ginger and echinacea contain TRPV1 agonists and are used medicinally, so they might have a similar effect to chilli.
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    Hmmmm...very good point, bw. Have you tried this yourself? I'm interested in going back and trying a smaller dose...though given my reaction...I'm scared. I'm hoping the desensitization actually works. I won't try this again until I have a few days of no work.

    Marie -- Were you taking 500 mg twice a day?
    • CommentAuthorshanee
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    Thanks Marie for the feedback. I would have to agree that those are good points BW. I plan on just taking the same dose as in the pilot study . I also plan on doing that for a week w/no salicylates added. Then the 2nd week I will add salicylates if I'm tolerating the chilli powder.

    It's going to be extremely helpful that we are reporting back on what we did and how much etc...that way we can tweak it a bit knowing what others have tried. And get suggestions or help from other members.
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    Can't wait to hear how it goes, shanee!
    • CommentAuthormarieling
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    Hi All
    So I was taking 500mg capsules once daily on day one and then upped it to 3 times daily on day two and of course added in apples too quickly (watermelon I can already tolerate in small to moderate doses). So I agree, I was over- confident thinking that I could do things more quickly than recommended (one day I will learn that lesson !!). OK, my next step will be to let symptoms settle and I will retry at a much lower dose. I think I will bake just one capsule into some biscuits and then increase the dose slowly from there without changing my diet for a few weeks.

    Kind Regards
    Marie
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012 edited
     
    Ha ha ha! So that is why my father never lapsed into full blown ss. He eats an jalepeno with every meal! Literally every meal! Does the capsaisin desensitizing help to reverse ss, or does one have to keep eating it every time they want to eat something high sal???? I'm glad my tolerance has increased because even the smell of chili makes me gag.
    • CommentAuthorPossum
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    Jalapeno for breakfast Rita??!!
  10.  
    vesper7, no, I haven't had any capsaicin for years. I still don't know how much of the effect is from reduced absorption of salicylate, and how much from desensitisation. The different modes of desensitisation complicates things a lot. In the past I noticed that my increased tolerance to chilli, as far as withstanding the burning feeling in the mouth is concerned, lasted a long time, maybe years. I was probably consuming quite a lot more capsaicin than in the pilot trial, though, and anyhow that effect probably wouldn't be replicated throughout the body, or even be desirable. After the hottest meal I ever ate, which is saying something, I ran a short distance and could actually feel the capsaicin in my veins. That amount of capsaicin each day might produce thorough and long-lasting desensitisation, but I wouldn't recommend it. It's likely I'll try capsaicin at some stage. Sometimes it's hard to decide what to try next.
    •  
      CommentAuthorvesper7
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2012
     
    Interesting. Yes, I often feel that way myself...about not knowing what to try next. I've all too often launched myself into "experiments", and have paid dearly for them. Feeling exhausted. Would be nice to have clear answers. :)
    • CommentAuthorRita
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2012 edited
     
    Possum, YES! With his eggs or potatoes in a chili sauce!!!!